Update?

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Tector
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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:51 pm

I agree with you Juggalo. What makes no sense is that the only way to get it to stop pinging is back off the timing or richen the AF mixture until the car has about as much power as a well tuned weed eater. If I try to produce different tunes from Special forces for different octanes, the tunes are all identical. Tell me that makes sense.

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Re: Update?

Post by Juggalo_X » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:06 pm

Tector wrote:I agree with you Juggalo. What makes no sense is that the only way to get it to stop pinging is back off the timing or richen the AF mixture until the car has about as much power as a well tuned weed eater. If I try to produce different tunes from Special forces for different octanes, the tunes are all identical. Tell me that makes sense.
are you making your own A/F adjustments and timing adjustments? also what vehicle r we talking about? different engines respond differently. the SOHC and DOHC engines don't like timing advancements as much as a push rod.
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Re: Update?

Post by Juggalo_X » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:11 pm

do you have a interface version that is working with the data logging? id like to see a log, and im sure one of the guys who is more savvy then i am would too.
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Re: Update?

Post by Kurt » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:19 pm

It kind of sounds like your trying to get more out of your setup then it's capable of with pump gas.

Is this a forced induction setup, Tector?

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Re: Update?

Post by Juggalo_X » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:41 pm

Kurt wrote:It kind of sounds like your trying to get more out of your setup then it's capable of with pump gas.

Is this a forced induction setup, Tector?
time to move over ot jet fuel :P :roll: nah this could be a mechanical issue or a tune issue. its possible he has some odd ball pcm? who knows. you say snipers techs have looked at your tune and they couldn't find an issue? like i said data log
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Re: Update?

Post by cliffyk » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:18 pm

There is no way I would endorse using Seafoam on a car with only 5000 miles on it--it will most likely create problems, and will not fix anything. Seafoam is a product that was developed in the 50s for use in marine engines (hence the name) that either ran cold a lot (many do in colder waters), or sat unused for extended periods. This was also back before gasolines had the detergents and cleansers that modern gas has.

It is completely unnecessary in any properly maintained (I.e. regular oil changes and run on clean pump gas) modern engine, regardless of mileage.
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Re: Update?

Post by Rhynotune » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:10 pm

The files that Special Forces makes are pretty conservative. I would be surprised if it was pinging as the result of that file. The Recon issue has been touchy since day one, but if you get me a Diablo log i'll look at it, or unless of course you have Recon.

My guess is that if it's pinging, your running bad gas or something be it mechanical or otherwise out of normal tuning is affecting your problem. I haven't really come across any Special Forces bugs other than you can't modify a tune a Delta Force dealer has sent. Give us the specs on the car, send me a file and I'll take a look at it as well. You have a couple other people willing to do the same.

Last but certainly not least, I'm as frustrated as anyone else, but [I have a potty mouth] does happen as they say. The opposite of good luck is bad luck, and if you get one, your bound to get the other. I know it's tough to hear and tough to believe and probably most of all be patient, but it's part of racing. And you know what Harry told Cole Trickle, ''He didn't bump you, he rubbed you, and rubbin' son is racin'' part of it, they will remedy the problem ASAP.

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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:00 am

I'd love to be able to data log, but without Recon working I don't have a way to do that. Patrick from Sniper suggested the same thing. He also feels there might be a mechanical problem with the car, but I doubt it. If I go back to the stock supercharger pulley and stock (Roush) intake the pinging is gone.
The car is a 2006 Stage 3 Roush Mustang with a 2.8" vs. 2.93" supercharger pulley and a 3.5" CAI from Modular Mustang Racing. The smaller pulley should raise the boost from 5 psi to 6 psi. The current Roush supercharger kits use the same 2.8" pulley for an extra 15 HP. There are supercharger systems that raise boost well above this level on 93 octane gas with the right tune. I thought of bad gas too so I tried fresh tanks of gas from Mobil, Citgo, and BP with the same results. I'd try a tank of my VP race gas I run in my Pantera, but that would certainly plug the catalysts ;-)
What is strange is that I can richen the AF by 1-2 points across the entire table, and I can retard timing by 10 deg. across the entire table, but the ping doesn't go away the car just gets real slow. I have also adjusted the MAF vs. air mass rate by 20% to compensate for the larger MAF housing from MMR per Patrick. The ping I'm talking about is a "light" sounding ping that occurs between about 1750 rpm to 2500 rpm anywhere between 1/3 to WOT. It's most noticeable at freeway speeds in 5th gear when the engine is under a load.
I took a day of vacation two weeks ago on Friday and spent the entire weekend trying different tunes and combinations all of which should have reduced the pinging. I thought I had it with one tune where I essentially setup the advance table as if it were a distributor with mechanical advance only and a maximum advance of 25 deg. That worked until I filled the gas tank and reduced the octane booster concentration.
I'll give you an example of what I consider to be a "bug" in the software. I can create a tune with Special Forces for 87 octane gas and for 110 octane gas, and the two files are identical. I went through every parameter and even looked at those that weren't marked as changed. I consider that a bug, but you may call it something else.
I could go on and on about all the tune changes I have made, but I'm guessing I got too long winded already. I really think the problem is either caused by or at least exacerbated by the the complexity of the drive by wire used on the newer Mustangs, and the Sniper software hasn't been developed sufficiently to deal with it.

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Re: Update?

Post by RRT » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:19 am

Seems like your maf transfer function is way off scale and your probably running lean because of that. I know the special forces doesnt include a option for the MMR maf housing so that alone will need custom tuning with either Commando or Delta force. No amount of timing adjustment will safely resolve your problem a 100% with the Transfer function off. I would suggest getting the MAF transfer function table from Mark at MMR and having Patrick or a Delta force dealer build you a tune off that. This is not a Fault with in Special forces making your car do this its just needs finer tuning because of a unique combination
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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:38 am

are you making your own A/F adjustments and timing adjustments? also what vehicle r we talking about? different engines respond differently. the SOHC and DOHC engines don't like timing advancements as much as a push rod.
I have used both Special Forces generated tunes and tunes where I've modified both A/F and timing by both lowering the A/F ratio and reducing timing. I've also modified the MAF voltage vs. air flow table and the fuel injector ramp rates to no avail. I was able to get the mixture so rich the car smoked like a diesel by altering the injector ramp rates. It didn't ping when the smoking started, but it did right up until that point.
I know the newer Mod engines don't like as much timing as the older push rod motors. I'm used to about 38 deg. total advance (16 at the crank and 22 in the distributor) at WOT, but I'm told the 3v Mod engines don't need anymore than 25 deg. at WOT. The vehicle we are talking about is a 2006 Stage 3 Roush Mustang with the 2.8" supercharger pulley and a Modular Mustang racing Annihilator intake kit.

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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:42 am

RRT wrote:Seems like your maf transfer function is way off scale and your probably running lean because of that. I know the special forces doesnt include a option for the MMR maf housing so that alone will need custom tuning with either Commando or Delta force. No amount of timing adjustment will safely resolve your problem a 100% with the Transfer function off. I would suggest getting the MAF transfer function table from Mark at MMR and having Patrick or a Delta force dealer build you a tune off that. This is not a Fault with in Special forces making your car do this its just needs finer tuning because of a unique combination

I have modified the MAF transfer function according to Patrick's recommendation. I have also put the stock intake back on thinking the MAF might be the problem, and that didn't help either.

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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:27 am

I apologize to kustomizedzx2 for hijacking this post, but in a way my problem is related to the Recon update. I think if I had Recon, I would have a much better chance at pin pointing my problem. I don't know how else to determine what the TPS voltage is or what the load is when the car pings on a drive by wire vehicle without some sort of logging.
To give you an idea of my background, I'm a 50 year old Mechanical Engineer who has been building and tuning street and race engines since the 60's. I don't pretend to know everything, and I'm certainly new to electronically tuning the Ford Mod motors.

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Re: Update?

Post by MustangGT » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:47 am

Tector wrote:
are you making your own A/F adjustments and timing adjustments? also what vehicle r we talking about? different engines respond differently. the SOHC and DOHC engines don't like timing advancements as much as a push rod.
I have used both Special Forces generated tunes and tunes where I've modified both A/F and timing by both lowering the A/F ratio and reducing timing. I've also modified the MAF voltage vs. air flow table and the fuel injector ramp rates to no avail. I was able to get the mixture so rich the car smoked like a diesel by altering the injector ramp rates. It didn't ping when the smoking started, but it did right up until that point.
I know the newer Mod engines don't like as much timing as the older push rod motors. I'm used to about 38 deg. total advance (16 at the crank and 22 in the distributor) at WOT, but I'm told the 3v Mod engines don't need anymore than 25 deg. at WOT. The vehicle we are talking about is a 2006 Stage 3 Roush Mustang with the 2.8" supercharger pulley and a Modular Mustang racing Annihilator intake kit.
Hi Tector, I may be a n00b at sniper since yesterday I tuned my first car with SF. being that a Lincoln truck but let me tell you my experience. I made a list with all the modifications of the truck (centri sc, c&l maf, injectors, fuel pump,filter,and so on) well with the stock tune the truck was very lean but still driveable in someway but when I made my first tune using all the functions that SF has, the truck will act like completly junk. so I kept trying and decided that I would set everything as stock and just playing with afr and timing and the results where and impressive 90lbs of tq and 80rwhp gains

so I would recommend to give it a try and do like I did

btw recon would have been a great tool but I had to use a handheld as a diagnostic tool. so I'm looking forward to recon since I liked the sniper software

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Re: Update?

Post by 98LSC32V » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:00 pm

I wouldn't run more than 20 degrees of total timing on your supercharged 4.6 3V, you will break your piston ring lands real quick running more timing than that and pinging. I wouldn't even drive the car and definitely don't go WOT until you get this resolved. If I were you I would go back to stock!
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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:36 pm

98LSC32V wrote:I wouldn't run more than 20 degrees of total timing on your supercharged 4.6 3V, you will break your piston ring lands real quick running more timing than that and pinging. I wouldn't even drive the car and definitely don't go WOT until you get this resolved. If I were you I would go back to stock!
I'm not driving the car because of the problem, and this weekend it goes back to stock. Trial and error with engine knock is a good way to break pistons cast or forged. I just want my money back from Sniper because they sold me a product that doesn't work for my application. I don't see why this is such a problem for them especially with all those thousands of satisfied customers out there.

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Re: Update?

Post by kustomizedzx2 » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:36 pm

SeaFoam is good stuff, and its proven. I use it once every 10,000 miles and i notice a difference. using it on a car with hardly any miles on it, probably not so smart.
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Re: Update?

Post by bgrd351 » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:57 pm

Tector wrote:I'm not driving the car because of the problem, and this weekend it goes back to stock. Trial and error with engine knock is a good way to break pistons cast or forged. I just want my money back from Sniper because they sold me a product that doesn't work for my application. I don't see why this is such a problem for them especially with all those thousands of satisfied customers out there.

Well...Mattr66 offered to help you sort it out. While you wait to hear from Sniper why dont you return the car back to stock and see if he can tune your car to where you are happy. Then once that is done he can take it to the next level with your mods. I have seen his tunes and they are great.

But it is your car so it is up to you and I am just making a suggestion.

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Re: Update?

Post by Juggalo_X » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:39 pm

Tector wrote:
are you making your own A/F adjustments and timing adjustments? also what vehicle r we talking about? different engines respond differently. the SOHC and DOHC engines don't like timing advancements as much as a push rod.
I have used both Special Forces generated tunes and tunes where I've modified both A/F and timing by both lowering the A/F ratio and reducing timing. I've also modified the MAF voltage vs. air flow table and the fuel injector ramp rates to no avail. I was able to get the mixture so rich the car smoked like a diesel by altering the injector ramp rates. It didn't ping when the smoking started, but it did right up until that point.
I know the newer Mod engines don't like as much timing as the older push rod motors. I'm used to about 38 deg. total advance (16 at the crank and 22 in the distributor) at WOT, but I'm told the 3v Mod engines don't need anymore than 25 deg. at WOT. The vehicle we are talking about is a 2006 Stage 3 Roush Mustang with the 2.8" supercharger pulley and a Modular Mustang racing Annihilator intake kit.
Roush owners are supposed to contact sniper with your PCM file before tuning have you done this? there are special templates for roush
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Re: Update?

Post by RobR » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:58 am

Tector ........ You have been offer good advice form good turners on this board as in Matt66 and RRT ect, on taking a look at your tune files ....... I also tune cars for a living all day long at my shop and have used about all availed tuning software out there in the last 20 years .We also use sniper and is a very good product for the end user that know how to tune with it .. Special forces works very well for generating safe canned tunes and can be fine tuned after a file has been built . The problem with your Roush SC car is that it has a Roush SC generated tune file in the ECM and you will have to use commando or Delta Force to configure a new tuning file for your application . The problem with S197 Spanish Oak TC systems is that they are very sensitive to air meter changes and will go very lean and add timing thru the load tables if the Maf tranfer are not set within 5 % of the fuel trims . The ideal fix to your problem would be , if Mark at MMR would give you the Maf tranfer file to the meter you purchased but that will never happen !! MMR has spent countless of hours on the dyno to generate a tune to work with there own CAI so they can package it with there offered hand held tuner ... We had a customer with a 06 SC Roush that we tuned with a BBR 2.6 pulley and a generic CAI and i spent countless of hour on the dyno steady state tuning before we got the tune right . Since then , he has sold the Roush and purchased a 2008 GT 500 and we are now going thru the same headaches generating a new tuning file for a 2.6 pulley , snub idler , JLT carbon fiber CAI and a 75 shot of nitrous since we don't have the Maf tranfers for the JLT cold air .... As for your car's timing table , it would be safe to not use any more then 20 degrees of timing at higher loads with 91-92 octane fuel with a given 9 to 10 pounds of boost !! It has become more complex in the tuning game with newer and faster processor that Ford is building and in late 2009 , i heard ( thru the grapevine) Ford will be upgradeing to 10 meg ECM's ..... So it will be safe to say that in the near future that Chris , Patrick , Sam and the rest of the guys at Sniper will be totality bald headed due to pulling there hair out as technology advances with there tech support...(LOL) :mrgreen:

Later RobR

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Re: Update?

Post by Tector » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:55 am

I do appreciate everyone's help and advice and thank all of you. I know the Roush tune has some idiosyncrasies and the MMR MAF alters the MAF transfer function. I do have the Roush template from Sniper, I have sent Matt66 some files, and I have tried tuning with the stock MAF to eliminate that variable. I would happily take the car to a tuner with a dyno, but the only one I have found anywhere close to where I live only tunes with SCT. If any of you know of a good tuner in the Wisconsin area, please let me know. Right now the car is back to being completely stock.
I must also say that Sniper's support has been fantastic! I have no complaint with anyone at Sniper. Last night as I was returning both my vehicles back to stock, for some reason my truck didn't flash correctly and wouldn't run. A re-flash only gave me error 62. I called Sniper and within about 15 minutes they had me setup with a magic bullet, waited on the phone to make sure my truck flashed correctly and was running again, and gave me codes to reset my bullets.
My problem with the software and my reason for wanting and justifying a refund is that it does not perform as advertised. For my application, Recon doesn't work at all, SF won't generate a tune that works satisfactorily, and even with Sniper's expert help, I haven't been able to modify the tunes with Commando to get a tune to work well. My local SCT tuner has tuned cars with my current setup before and is confident he will have the car running well in about 2 hours. From what I've heard here is that many of you have spent a lot more time than that using Sniper to tune vehicles similar to mine. Again saying that SF will produce a conservative tune which can then be fine tuned using Commando is false advertising. Engine knock isn't something you fix through trial and error. I've seen what happens to pistons when someone ignores the knock and keeps their foot into it. It looks a lot like someone took a hammer to the top of the piston, and even if the piston doesn't break the top ring lands are sure to. Am I making any sense?

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